49 replies to this topic

[firestorm119]

In my recent rereading of battletech novels I was again reminded of the immense impact that mech heating has on the battlefield; so much as firing a couple lasers in succession was enough to force a pilot to slam the shutdown override. More significant than that, though was the physical danger heat build-ups imposed on the pilot. The novels make it seem that a pilot burning in their cockpit is just as real a danger as being blown up an enemy mech. Not to compare apples and oranges, but beyond a simple 5 sec cool-down we haven't seen heat play a significant role in past mechwarrior games (or at least the ones I've played, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). I thus had the idea that maybe heat could affect a player's ability to pilot--high levels of heat could cause vision to blur/wave (like how car fumes distort vision on a hot summer day) and/or for the screen to take a red/orange tint. I could understand that this could be annoying especially to casual players who just want to jump in and blow things up. I, however, think that this could be an interesting immersion factor that could help discourage running one's mech hot. Any thoughts?

[Rutok]

There are all sorts of malfunctions that could arise from excessive heat. Blurring vision is annoying though.. add the shaking of the cockpit to that when somebody is shooting your mech and the whole game experience is suddenly reduced to a shaking blurred screen..

But the risk of damaging your machine permanently could be implemented. If you just run around alpha striking everything there could be a chance that weapons stop working, there could be a chance that heat sinks explode or start leaking, reactors could start loosing effectiveness (thus reducing your speed or making energy weapon recharge times longer), cockpit visuals could start flickering or go out permanently as sensors are damaged, the infrared vision mode (if it is ingame ^^) could become useless as your mech is literally "the hottest thing in town"...

[Siilk]

I'm all for increasing the danger of "riding redline" and generally keeping mech at high heat level, especially for too long. Taking MW4-style coolant out of the game would be the first step in right direction. Additionally, as Rutok said, all sort of internal damage due to high heat should be introduced. And don't forget about ammo cook-offs, they should be a real danger to anything with ammo bays.

[Motionless]

Quote

but beyond a simple 5 sec cool-down we haven't seen heat play a significant role in past mechwarrior games

In Mechwarrior 3 and 4 excess heat affects your ability to gather information from the hud. Extreme excess heat would destroy your mech.

[Suskis]

I think that devs should stick as much as possible to tabletop game for several reasons. Mainly because those rules have been around for almost 30 years. Effects of heat are clearly indicated in the manuals and that's all.
I have never read a battletech novel, but I doubt all writers played the game at all.

[T0RC4ED]

firestorm119, on 01 April 2012 - 12:27 AM, said:

Not to compare apples and oranges, but beyond a simple 5 sec cool-down we haven't seen heat play a significant role in past mechwarrior games (or at least the ones I've played, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong).

Im not sure about everyone else, but it seems like my cockpit is almost always flashing and crying about heat.

[StompyMcGee]

Siilk, on 01 April 2012 - 01:12 AM, said:

I'm all for increasing the danger of "riding redline" and generally keeping mech at high heat level, especially for too long. Taking MW4-style coolant out of the game would be the first step in right direction. Additionally, as Rutok said, all sort of internal damage due to high heat should be introduced. And don't forget about ammo cook-offs, they should be a real danger to anything with ammo bays.

I think heat needs to have a range of effects.
To begin with, 'cosmetic' effects(HUD blurring etc, loss of sensors/targetting), with increasing time at 'redline', other things which would reduce a mech's ability to output damage would oocur, leading onto actual heat-damage of weapons and mech systems(such that would cost C-bills to repair afterwards, rather than just going back to normal after cooling down), up to weapons disabling, ammo cookoffs and, in extreme circumstances, actual destruction of the mech.

[SirDenOfYork]

I think there is enough effects on the Mechs. lets not over do it, i think the setup in place is fine...

[Gozer]

Didn't the Devs already hint at the removal of the MW4 "instant collant" system?

[Tadakuma]

Part of the issue is that the books are based of board game. Weapons fire and heat dissipation takes place in a single unit called a round and is simplified abstraction.

I once worked it out that a round was approximately 12 seconds give or take a few decimal places. The thing is that heat generation is instantaneous while heat dissipation takes place over that entire 12 second, so if you alpha strike and fire everything in a single volley then you get a heat spike. Over that 12 second period you will dissipate that heat but at the moment of firing it will creates an issue. Which would create the heat spikes described in the book

Personally I like the idea that heat has an in game effect on the pilot. It will make the game more interesting, it means that you have an incentive to cycle your weapons and fire them in small volleys rather then throw out single large groups.

It also solves a couple of other problems like the alpha strike and boating so I'm all for it.

[karish]

the more adverse the heat effects get the less Alpha strikes there well be. if you remember in the books and table top alpha stikes were a last ditch effert to kill or be killed not a standard battle tactic

[Seabear]

Time and again one reads of the dangers of excess heat in the novels and TROs. One should have to manage heat properly or suffer the consequences. We will see palyers who load up a mech with 4 PPCs and try to fire them as grouped machine guns. That player should feel the full effects of poor heat management. Unwise use of heat producing weapons needs to affect one's mech for a considerable time after use. As has been pointed out above, heat is generated at once but disipates slowly.

[Strum Wealh]

Tadakuma, on 01 April 2012 - 05:20 AM, said:

Part of the issue is that the books are based of board game. Weapons fire and heat dissipation takes place in a single unit called a round and is simplified abstraction.

I once worked it out that a round was approximately 12 seconds give or take a few decimal places. The thing is that heat generation is instantaneous while heat dissipation takes place over that entire 12 second, so if you alpha strike and fire everything in a single volley then you get a heat spike. Over that 12 second period you will dissipate that heat but at the moment of firing it will creates an issue. Which would create the heat spikes described in the book

Personally I like the idea that heat has an in game effect on the pilot. It will make the game more interesting, it means that you have an incentive to cycle your weapons and fire them in small volleys rather then throw out single large groups.

It also solves a couple of other problems like the alpha strike and boating so I'm all for it.

A turn is specifically defined as representing a 10-second period (Total Warfare, pg. 36).
The same paragraph also specifies that one hex represents an area that is 30 meters across.

We know that one standard Heat Sink would (canonically) dissipate one unit of heat during one turn (10 second period), representing a dissipation rate of 0.1 units of heat per second.
Likewise, one Double Heat Sink would (canonically) dissipate heat at a rate of 0.2 units of heat per second.

'Mechs come with 10 HS or 10 DHS as standard equipment, representing the ability to dissipate up to 1.0 units of heat per second (standard HS) or 2.0 units of heat per second (DHS) as a base value that can be increased as the number of installed Heat Sinks increases.

Take, for example, the recently-unveiled AWS-8Q Awesome.
It has 28 standard Heat Sinks installed; it would have an overall dissipation rate of 2.8 units of heat per second.
If the Awesome were to fire its three PPCs together while standing still, it would generate 30 units of heat (10 per PPC) instantly (representing the heat spikes described in the novels).
It should take the Awesome's 28 Heat Sinks about 10.71 seconds to completely dissipate all of the heat generated by that triple-PPC firing.

Another useful example in this case would be the Supernova.
It has 26 Double Heat Sinks installed; it would have an overall dissipation rate of 5.2 units of heat per second.
If the Supernova were to fire its six ER Large Lasers together while standing still, it would generate 72 units of heat (12 per ERLL) instantly.
It should take the Supernova's 26 DHSs about 13.85 seconds to completely dissipate all of the heat generated by that six-ERLL firing.

Your thoughts?

-----

I, too, think it would be interesting to see heat - specifically, prolonged periods of having the heat level above the "recommended heat level" - have detrimental effects on the BattleMech's movement, cockpit systems, and pilot visibility (say, a de-focusing/"soft focus"/"fuzzy vision" effect that becomes more pronounced with time at high heat levels, and less pronounced with time as heat levels decrease)...

[Nik Van Rhijn]

SirDenOfYork, on 01 April 2012 - 02:19 AM, said:

I think there is enough effects on the Mechs. lets not over do it, i think the setup in place is fine...

Please tell us more as you obviously know something we don't?

[Tadakuma]

Strum Wealh, on 01 April 2012 - 08:32 AM, said:

A turn is specifically defined as representing a 10-second period (Total Warfare, pg. 36).
The same paragraph also specifies that one hex represents an area that is 30 meters across.

We know that one standard Heat Sink would (canonically) dissipate one unit of heat during one turn (10 second period), representing a dissipation rate of 0.1 units of heat per second.
Likewise, one Double Heat Sink would (canonically) dissipate heat at a rate of 0.2 units of heat per second.

'Mechs come with 10 HS or 10 DHS as standard equipment, representing the ability to dissipate up to 1.0 units of heat per second (standard HS) or 2.0 units of heat per second (DHS) as a base value that can be increased as the number of installed Heat Sinks increases.

Take, for example, the recently-unveiled AWS-8Q Awesome.
It has 28 standard Heat Sinks installed; it would have an overall dissipation rate of 2.8 units of heat per second.
If the Awesome were to fire its three PPCs together while standing still, it would generate 30 units of heat (10 per PPC) instantly (representing the heat spikes described in the novels).
It should take the Awesome's 28 Heat Sinks about 10.71 seconds to completely dissipate all of the heat generated by that triple-PPC firing.

Another useful example in this case would be the Supernova.
It has 26 Double Heat Sinks installed; it would have an overall dissipation rate of 5.2 units of heat per second.
If the Supernova were to fire its six ER Large Lasers together while standing still, it would generate 72 units of heat (12 per ERLL) instantly.
It should take the Supernova's 26 DHSs about 13.85 seconds to completely dissipate all of the heat generated by that six-ERLL firing.

Your thoughts?

-----

I, too, think it would be interesting to see heat - specifically, prolonged periods of having the heat level above the "recommended heat level" - have detrimental effects on the BattleMech's movement, cockpit systems, and pilot visibility (say, a de-focusing/"soft focus"/"fuzzy vision" effect that becomes more pronounced with time at high heat levels, and less pronounced with time as heat levels decrease)...

My experience with the tabletop pre-dates the total war rule book (I'm still using an old copy of the Battlech compendium and 2ed Mechwarrior)

But yeah it's the same principle and you expressed my opinion in clearer format so kudos, for that.

l

[Siilk]

I see a lot of great ideas here. I just hope devs would read this thread too and take at least some of ideas into account.

StompyMcGee, on 01 April 2012 - 02:16 AM, said:

I think heat needs to have a range of effects.
To begin with, 'cosmetic' effects(HUD blurring etc, loss of sensors/targetting), with increasing time at 'redline', other things which would reduce a mech's ability to output damage would oocur, leading onto actual heat-damage of weapons and mech systems(such that would cost C-bills to repair afterwards, rather than just going back to normal after cooling down), up to weapons disabling, ammo cookoffs and, in extreme circumstances, actual destruction of the mech.

I completely agree. I even had a nice list of such effects in one of the old threads:

Siilk, on 14 March 2012 - 07:47 AM, said:

Redlining as well as overheating should definitely lead to severe consequences such as(from low to high heat):

* partial HUD disruption
* Temporary equipment malfunction
* Reticle shaking due to spontaneous twitching in myomers
* Blurry vision(due to excessive cockpit heat)
>Overrideable Auto-shutdown here<
* Permanent heatsink damage
* Permanent Internals damage
* Total HUD disruption
* Ammo cook-offs
* Heatstroke-induced redout
>Unoverrideable auto-shutdown<
* Reactor core meltdown, permanent damage to reactor
* Reactor core breach, mech destruction.

Note, that even though there is unoverrideable auto-shutdown, reactor core meltdown or breach is possible if there would be a high heat spike while mech is still very hot.

Gozer, on 01 April 2012 - 05:14 AM, said:

Didn't the Devs already hint at the removal of the MW4 "instant collant" system?

Yes, I remember something like that but I'm not 100% sure about it.

Strum Wealh, on 01 April 2012 - 08:32 AM, said:

Your thoughts?

You're right, that's how heat accumulation and dissipation should work.

[HeIIequin]

I'm all for a more realistic heat system. It will probably reek havoc upon my poor piloting skills, but I want it anyways. I say throw in everything including the kitchen sink, and see how it works. Take away from it if needed. It'll probably go the other way (add a bit over time), but as long as heat is taken a bit more seriously than just 'mech shutdown', I'm happy. Prolonged mech battles are much more exciting.

Edited by HeIIequin, 01 April 2012 - 09:55 AM.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

I for one would really HOPE that heat is made something significant. By the looks of things, Med Lasers appear to be following cannon at 5 damage a pop (granted lasers are not quite instant damage from gameplay). With these babies costing a mere 1 ton, and a limited hardpoint 'mechlab, I can foresee players running up to you in a medium or heavy with a dozen of these instant gibbing 'mechs -- with enough heatsinks to not kill themselves in the same process. That is a serious issue (and a real one for those who have played MW2 or MW3). Hopefully, heat will play such a role where doing such tactics are simply unplausible. (Granted there are canon 'mechs that do this, Nova, SuperNova with ERLLs...)

[Nowan123]

Laser mediums overheat as well, btw...
And ammo explosions.

[Rogue Jedi]

i remember in MW4 setting up a mech (i do not remember which) with 4 lbx20 autocannons, thinking it would have little heat to disperse I removed all heat sinks, then took it into an instant action game, got close to an Atlas (my target) fired all 4 in an alpha strike and my Mech exploded.

Heat had a severe effect in the earlier games if you did not handle it you were in serious trouble.